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> Were lava levels supposed to be in DKC1?, If not, where was Hot Head Bop meant to be played?
XD375
post Feb 16 2012, 05:33 PM
Post #1


Video Game Hero









As many of you know, the song Hot Head Bop is actually hidden in the original DKC cartridge somewhere and can be heard through glitches.

I'd like to know if anyone has a rip of the version from this game, actually, in case there's any differences. I've never actually heard the song as it is in DKC1, so I'm not actually sure if it has any differences. If it sounds exactly like DKC2's version, that's a little odd since I think it sounds a lot more like a DKC2 song than anything in DKC1.

I just can't imagine the song working in any levels in DKC1.

So what would you have liked to have seen in regards to lava levels in the first DKC?
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Kobble
post Feb 16 2012, 08:09 PM
Post #2


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I did not know this. Interesting. Is that the only song present in DKC that wasn't in the game?
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ReggieFish
post Feb 16 2012, 08:39 PM
Post #3


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Interesting that DKCR has them then, since it's closest to the original.
Video games YEAH!
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Lighthouse
post Feb 16 2012, 09:28 PM
Post #4


Mostly German









QUOTE(Kobble @ Feb 16 2012, 09:09 PM) *

I did not know this. Interesting. Is that the only song present in DKC that wasn't in the game?

Indeed it is. If I recall correctly, it sounds exactly as it did on the SNES. This means that the lava levels might've occurred in Chimp Caverns or something originally (since it's the only stage without a new archetype) but were scrapped.
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Neonlimit
post Feb 16 2012, 09:36 PM
Post #5


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Interestingly enough, when the game was re-done for the GBA, they added lava to Chimp Caverns.
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Man-Frog
post Feb 16 2012, 09:50 PM
Post #6


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More like, they added a weird red haze to the map screen for Chimp Caverns.
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Frogstar
post Feb 16 2012, 10:34 PM
Post #7


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Oh yeah! I forgot Chimp Caverns was molten on the GBA. I guess DK Island had already been confirmed to be volcanic pre-DKCR. It's pretty cool if that was actually Rare's intention all along, and even more so that Hot Head Bop dates back to the original DKC. I wonder what a fully realized Chimp Caverns environment would have looked like if Rare had implement it as a lava world.
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M-Dog1000000
post Feb 16 2012, 10:44 PM
Post #8


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That's too bad they never implemented it, Chimp Caverns always did feel like a let-down, like it should've been this great last world filled with dangerous lava. Good to know it was the intention at least.
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XD375
post Feb 16 2012, 11:17 PM
Post #9


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This is probably why lava levels appeared as soon as the plot allowed them to in Donkey Kong Country 2... I wonder if any other archetypes from DKC2 were originally meant for the original's final world.

Oh, and I can confirm that the music is not part of the sound test.
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Slush
post Feb 17 2012, 12:16 AM
Post #10


Co-Founder/Editor-in-Chief









The beginning of DKC2 was almost an overflow of unused concepts or things fans wanted to see in the original. Disappointed that Gangplank Galleon wasn't an entire world? HERE YOU GO. Find it strange that there was no volcano world? BOOM.

It wasn't until later in the game that the most esoteric worlds that you wouldn't expect in a Donkey Kong game appeared, like amusement park, haunted woods, and video game bad guy castle.
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M-Dog1000000
post Feb 17 2012, 01:27 AM
Post #11


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Huh, I never realized how "generic 90's cartoon platformer" DKC2's archetypes were...

Well, brambles, beehives, and swamps weren't that common anywhere at least.


I'm actually disappointed that lava was used so early on in DKC2, when it probably would've been used for the final world in DKC1. Lava just has so much potential for challenging platforming, where danger is at every turn... Just a bit of a let down in DKC2 is all.
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XD375
post Feb 17 2012, 01:28 AM
Post #12


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No, I like how DKC2 did things differently and made the lava levels easy, and calm levels like the Brambles hard.
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Lighthouse
post Feb 17 2012, 01:35 AM
Post #13


Mostly German









I noticed something pretty interesting.

In the first DKC, Diddy and DK typically run out of some sort of interior area (whether it be from a hut in the treetops, an igloo in the snow, etc.). Then at the end of the level, you run into the same type of interior.

DKC2 is pretty much void of these entrance/exits with just a few minor exceptions... and even then, the endings (where Diddy and Dixie run off-screen) are the only ones that matter. Reason is because both Diddy and Dixie "fall" a very small distance when you start a level no matter where you are. So even though the beehives, for example, might have a "cave" at the beginning, said cave only matters at the end when Diddy and Dixie hit the target and was probably only put at the beginning for continuity purposes.

But...

IPB Image

^ as you can see, there's a large DKC-esque cavern that DK/Diddy could've potentially ran out of to start the level. Aside of Hot Head Bop being in the ROM, this is perhaps the biggest reason contributing to my probably-accurate theory that the lava levels were originally intended to be part of Chimp Caverns (funny thing is I never even thought about it in the past; my post earlier in this thread was on a whim).


So the potential evidence we've got:

1. Hot Head Bop being in the ROM
2. Chimp Caverns has no new archetype (instead, a 5th and final cave level is introduced)
3. There's lava in DKC GBA (though I don't think this even matters)
4. The giant cave at the beginning of the level
5. Similar aesthetic anantomy to the DKC Cave levels


....actually, holy fuck. I just beat Hot Head Bop to see whether or not Diddy/Dixie actually ran through the cave, and it turns out there is no cave at the end of the level. That is amazing. I think there's no doubt that DKC was originally going to have lava levels in Chimp Caverns.
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M-Dog1000000
post Feb 17 2012, 01:35 AM
Post #14


Lord of Games









Giant thorn bushes aren't exactly my idea of friendly...

I just think there's a lot of missed potential with the lava in DKC2, lava in general provides lots of game ideas, particularly challenges, as volcanoes are some of natures most extreme locations. I mean, it's fine, the levels were calming, the lava slow moving, it was great atmosphere and it played well, but because that's how they chose to portray it, we didn't get to see lava used in any other way. But it's fine, DKCR did it very well.
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Slush
post Feb 17 2012, 01:43 AM
Post #15


Co-Founder/Editor-in-Chief









I like the idea that Crocodile Isle was so rotten to the core that what would normally be the most hostile environment on the planet is actually the most pleasant place on the island.
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XD375
post Feb 17 2012, 02:21 AM
Post #16


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Cody, I actually always thought the lava levels reminded me of DKC1's designs but for some reason the cave at the beginning never hit me until you mentioned it.
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TheMasterDS
post Feb 17 2012, 02:30 AM
Post #17


Master of Banana Coin









Nice evidence there Highway, that's pretty conclusive evidence.
Ghoooooost
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Caramelman
post Feb 17 2012, 03:44 AM
Post #18


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QUOTE(Highway @ Feb 17 2012, 01:35 AM) *

...it turns out there is no cave at the end of the level. That is amazing.


Maybe I'm a bit slow, but what exactly is so amazing?
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Lighthouse
post Feb 17 2012, 03:52 AM
Post #19


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The fact that there's virtually no reason for the cave to exist in the first place other than to be leftover from DKC. It basically "confirmed" it was from DKC (even though the evidence was already there).
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Caramelman
post Feb 17 2012, 04:15 AM
Post #20


Animal Buddy









Ah, now I see where you come from.

Interestingly though, it would be pretty unusual for Dave Wise to do the music for a level he hasn't even seen actual material of. At least I think he said in an interview that he plays a level to get a feeling for he music esthetics.
So maybe the levels were even completed but something didn't work out well!
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Waddle Dedede
post Feb 17 2012, 04:23 AM
Post #21


Staff Member









Hell, maybe all of Donkey Kong Country 2 is squirrelled away on the original DKC cartridge somewhere!!!
QUOTE(XD375 @ Feb 16 2012, 11:33 PM) *
As many of you know
Now I feel really left-out and stuff. I knew nothing of any of this, how'd you find out about it?

Please tell me, I'll give you biscuits.
~ Waddle Dedede
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XD375
post Feb 17 2012, 05:44 AM
Post #22


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I just remember a thread about it back in 2005 or 2006, where Cody (I think) was talking about his game glitching and playing the song.
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Neonlimit
post Feb 17 2012, 09:51 AM
Post #23


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I wish that Rare page on Facebook still existed. We could've asked about this to the former employees that were on there. Now I really want to know.
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Lighthouse
post Feb 17 2012, 10:59 AM
Post #24


Mostly German









Here's some more evidence that totally skipped my mind: you're able to hop onto the beginning cave and walk around. This fits perfectly with some of the DKC entrances (jungle, temple, snow off memory). Chances are one of the the original lava levels would've had a hidden bonus barrel up on top of the entrance that you'd have to use a tire or Necky to get to.
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M-Dog1000000
post Feb 17 2012, 11:03 AM
Post #25


Lord of Games









Now I really want to see DKC character, enemy, and item sprites running or placed around the DKC2 lava archetype. Is there a hack out there that has this?
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Neonlimit
post Feb 17 2012, 11:05 AM
Post #26


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Damn it Highway, you're making me more and more anxious to find out the truth about this. Is there ANYONE on the web that we know of that's connected to Rare?
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Chad
post Feb 17 2012, 11:59 AM
Post #27


Co-Founder









Hey, a quick question... the notion that there was Hot Head Bop music in the first DKC was kind of just glossed over in this thread. Can someone explain that discovery and/or link to a video of someone playing it?
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Lighthouse
post Feb 17 2012, 12:28 PM
Post #28


Mostly German









I actually made a topic on DKC-Atlas in the ROM hacking boards asking the same thing. But what I do know is, in 2006 when I first posted that my game glitched, Icy Guy (I think) confirmed that it was in the ROM. I never knew it was in the game prior to my game glitching.
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Markster
post Feb 17 2012, 01:29 PM
Post #29


No Hoper









Interesting, well as I recall, there was a volcano in Super Donkey Kong in Japan on the title screen.
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Yusuf
post Feb 17 2012, 05:54 PM
Post #30


Video Game Hero









I'm sure Transparentjinjo or those RarewareCentral guys know the truthful answers to our questions.

QUOTE(Markster @ Feb 17 2012, 01:29 PM) *

Interesting, well as I recall, there was a volcano in Super Donkey Kong in Japan on the title screen.


IPB Image
It was only a mountain, no volcanic activity.
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Lighthouse
post Feb 17 2012, 06:33 PM
Post #31


Mostly German









Hacker Mattrizzle replied back to the topic on DKC-Atlas and said he basically didn't find anything remotely similar to Hot Head Bop in the DKC ROM. This might mean that my perception of what really happened might've been drastically warped around by a series of events. Looking back, I don't think I lied, but I might not have been accurate (an unintentional mistake).

However, in this topic (where I first mentioned it), Icy Guy basically confirmed that HHB was in the ROM and Mark mentioned that Loveday said the lava levels were supposed to be in DKC. So how I could potentially/unknowingly make up some total nonsense and accurately guess it right is a mystery. Because I really, honestly don't think I just made that up on the spot.

I still think the lava levels were originally going to be in DKC, though.
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XD375
post Feb 17 2012, 09:18 PM
Post #32


Video Game Hero









Well, if you read this thread you'll find Hot Head Bop actually is in the game somewhere. Remember, there's plenty of releases of the SNES version to choose from.
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Neonlimit
post Feb 17 2012, 10:16 PM
Post #33


Animal Buddy









Alright, I'm lost. One person is saying it's Hot Head Bop and another is saying it's just Life In The Mines. So what is it?
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XD375
post Feb 17 2012, 10:39 PM
Post #34


Video Game Hero









Life in the Mines is a DKC1 song.
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Frogstar
post Feb 17 2012, 11:31 PM
Post #35


Animal Buddy









The track is listed as Hot Head Bop in the "Monkey Choir" playlist, but when you listen to it, it's actually an alternate version of Life in the Mines. The guy who ripped the tracks got it wrong, as further evidenced by him saying that it can be heard using the DARBYDAY code in his post. This doesn't mean that Hot Head Bop isn't in the game, but it does cast a bit of doubt on the idea. Still, if Highway and Icy Guy said it's in there, I'm inclined to believe them.
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Neonlimit
post Feb 18 2012, 08:24 AM
Post #36


Animal Buddy









Well Loveday said it was supposed to be for DKC right? That's all the evidence you need right there. Whether it's actually in the game or not, just the fact that it was meant for the first game is pretty cool.
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Reed
post Feb 18 2012, 02:40 PM
Post #37


Kong Family Helper









Intriguing detective work guys. I always tried to get up on those cave entrances, but "hey, this is just like DKC1" or "hey, these aren't anywhere else in this game" never crossed my mind.

Also, I'm loving that Super Donkey Kong title screen.
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Waddle Dedede
post Feb 19 2012, 04:14 AM
Post #38


Staff Member









Well, I'm gonna be an OLD BASTARD and dismiss this topic's main thrust out-of-hand! That is, I reckon it's pretty obvious reading this lot through that no, in fact, lava levels were not intended for DKC1.
Or at least, that there's absolutely no evidence for it at all; clearly the identification of the Hot Head Bop music was an (honest) mistake, and everything else is speculation-based-on-nothing. YEAH, I WENT THERE.

If lava levels had, say, appeared in Donkey Kong Land (whose new level archetypes are likely to have been planned-but-not-made DKC archetypes), I might have bought it.
~ Waddle Dedede
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Lighthouse
post Feb 19 2012, 01:37 PM
Post #39


Mostly German









QUOTE(darkmark8 @ Apr 16 2006, 09:18 AM) *
To elaborate more on what Icy said, Loveday through an earlier "episode" of Scribes before the acquistion mentioned that HHB was originally meant to be in DKC, although because of time constraints couldn't make it in. I'll try to find the exact quote and edit it in later.

^ my own observations aside, this basically confirms that it was.

That and I still firmly believe that the developers would have absolutely no reason to place a DKC-style entrance at the beginning of every lava level when it isn't at the end of the level. From a developmental perspective, unless it was borrowed, it's pointless.
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M-Dog1000000
post Feb 19 2012, 10:34 PM
Post #40


Lord of Games









DKC now feels incomplete without these lava stages... I mean, the last world is such a pathetic whimper now that I look at it again.

Although, they probably would have had to change the worldmap to get a volcano working in there (unless they made lava gushing out of DK's nostrils). Maybe it would've resembled the island in DKCR.
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koopaul
post Feb 19 2012, 11:32 PM
Post #41


Immortal Monkey









True the last world was just more caves and stuff. It was like Monkey Mines 2.
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Waddle Dedede
post Feb 20 2012, 06:00 AM
Post #42


Staff Member









C'mon, Highway, a half-memory from Mark doesn't really constitute evidence (much as I love you, Mark!). I'm not ashamed to say I did have a fairly significant trawl through Scribes' past editions just now (good ol' Wayback Machine) and haven't turned up a single reference to what you're saying.

Could this be a feedback-loop of speculation that's somehow metamorphosed into "accepted fact"?

But yeah, I agree Chimp Caverns is a bit of a cop-out world. The last level is lazier than a morbidly obese Mario Party game.
~ Waddle Dedede
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Neonlimit
post Feb 20 2012, 01:47 PM
Post #43


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Since Rare Central has contact with numerous former Rare employees, would it be a good idea to have them ask about this? I think so, I want to know.
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Yusuf
post Feb 20 2012, 03:55 PM
Post #44


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I contacted one of the admins of RarewareCentral and asked him to contact a Rare employee about the lava levels. I will let you know when (if) he gets back to me.
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Lighthouse
post Feb 23 2012, 03:00 PM
Post #45


Mostly German









^ Hey, thanks for that. It'll be nice to get clarification from someone who worked on the game (or was at least familiar with its developmental cycle).
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Lighthouse
post Sep 1 2015, 06:16 PM
Post #46


Mostly German









Yusuf, did you ever hear back from the admin of RarewareCentral?

QUOTE
everything else is speculation-based-on-nothing. YEAH, I WENT THERE.

I just reread this thread and I kind of understand where you're coming from, but you don't find the interactable cave entrances a little suspicious? Or the lack of no new archetypes in Chimp Caverns? I mean, even if it is pure speculation, you have to admit the compiled evidence is pretty interesting. I would honestly be surprised if the lava level tilesets at the very least weren't created during DKC development. If anything this thread was quite a thrill to read 3 years later. DKC speculation is always fun.

... which actually reminds me of something I noticed a long time ago that doesn't really make sense: unlike literally every single other archetype in the game, the lava levels are aesthetically glitchy if you disable certain layers. In other words they only appear as pretty as they look in-game due to SNES layer trickery. I'll show you what I mean:

IPB Image

Other levels are extremely straightforward when it comes to layers. Web Woods is fog, terrain, background forest. Beehive is dripping honey, terrain, background honeycombs. Even the relatively complex-looking shiphold levels are terrain, ship background (including the 3D effect of the background boards), and the shimmering surface of water (water itself is handled using a completely different graphics engine than the rest)--and are not glitchy in the slightest.

To me, and I may be wrong, it seems as if the DKC2 team might've ported the unused lava tiles and managed to get them to display properly in a way that is different from the graphics created specifically for DKC2.

Of course, this is pure speculation and might not even be evidence at all. I just think it's pretty crazy how of all levels to be different in this regard, the lava levels fit that discription.
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SwankyKlubba
post Sep 1 2015, 06:59 PM
Post #47


He likes Swanky and Klubba









I think the cave entrance in this level is suspect. Although I have to admit it could be a design choice. It makes sense for the Kongs to appear on the pier of a swamp or on the deck of a ship, but just spawning onto a strip of land surrounded by lava wouldn't make much sense (unless they landed there after being fired from a barrel cannon).
The cave entrance/exit establishes a clear entryway to this hellish environment. In a way, Kleever's arena having the caves on both ends give it the feel of a proper boss arena, instead of an enclosure with no visible entrance.
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Lighthouse
post Sep 17 2015, 03:06 PM
Post #48


Mostly German









QUOTE(SwankyKlubba @ Sep 1 2015, 07:59 PM) *
just spawning onto a strip of land surrounded by lava wouldn't make much sense (unless they landed there after being fired from a barrel cannon).

Yeah, but what about other archetypes like the brambles? In Bramble Scramble you spawn into a secluded area with no entrance, and you can't even fall off-screen until you progress a little bit into the level -- and on that note, you spawn facing the left, which is a series rarity. I do wonder why it's not like Bramble Blast / Screech's Sprint in the sense that there is an off-screen entrance a la most other levels.

I also checked the warps in Hot Head Hop / Red Hot Ride, and same thing with the spontaneous spawning: you don't even come out of the cavern at the beginning.
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Thingster
post Sep 22 2015, 06:48 PM
Post #49


Brother Bear









Alright, I know most of these posts are over half a year old, but I'm still gonna defend Chimp Caverns.

Assuming this was the original intent, I'm actually glad things worked out the way they did. I'm really not a fan of final worlds with lava. They're overdone, they're rarely unique from one another, they're frustrating, and they're visually uninteresting. Those things are not what the DKC trilogy is about (I have to exclude Returns from this, and there's a reason Volcano is my least favorite world in Returns). I love how Platform Perils is the final stage of DKC. Mines are the most famous DKC stage theme behind jungle, and ending on that note just makes it stick even more.

It's also my hatred of final lava worlds that makes me love Crocodile Cauldron in DKC2. Okay, here's your token lava world. But guess what? It's the second world. It's unexpected, and because it's relatively early in the game, the stages avoid the typical frustration of latter-game lava worlds. Bonus points in that they have soothing music instead of something more dreadful sounding. DKC2's lava stages are just different. If DKC placed lava stages in Chimp Caverns, I doubt I'd feel so fondly of them as I do with Crocodile Cauldron.
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M-Dog1000000
post Sep 22 2015, 07:17 PM
Post #50


Lord of Games









It's not like every level in the world would've been a lava stage though, this is the original DKC series after all. I think it would've been nice to have a couple of lava stages in the final world, or even if it was just a backdrop for levels that are already in there. It's not like the lava actually made much of a difference in DKC2 anyway, it was pretty much caves with a volcano background.
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